There is an idea that has been disturbing me for awhile now that I want people's opinion's on. Actually I don't want your opinion, I want someone to be able to show it to me in scripture. Can some one please show me the phrase "Having a Relationship with Jesus Christ." Now I know that the idea is there. I know that through Christ's sacrifice on the cross he has enabled us to come into relationship with God and be called his children (Galatians 4:1). What I mean is the actual phrase, "relationship with Christ," is one that I can not find in Scripture, and I have been looking.
Some of you may be asking, "Jonathan, why have you been looking for this phrase in scripture?" Well I'm glad you asked because I want to tell you. Every time I hear the phrase "having a relationship with Christ." I can not help but think, "That is not in the Bible," and "Saying it like that really does a disservice to Christ and what he wants and desires for our lives." There is an aspect of Christianity that has really been bothering me lately and I want to blame some of it on this idea of "a relationship with Christ." It seems to me that Christianity has become, for lack of a better phrase, really sissified. Now before you throw up your defensive walls I really just want you to consider it for a moment. How much of what we do as a Church is girl centered? We walk into a sanctuary that has been decorated more than likely by women, we pass around shiny plates, we sit quietly and watch pretty backgrounds move around on the screen as the songs we sing about Jesus talk about him being beautiful, and lovely, and how he wants us to climb up in his lap and pet his beard as he gives us a big hug and tells us everything is going to be ok (not an original idea, for more on this listen to Matt Chandlers sermon entitled "Sanctification in Marriage" on the Village Church Podcast.) When that is all done we sit down again and listen to a guy tell us about how much Jesus loves us and views us as a bride and how he wants to marry us have us live with him forever. Am I the only guy that has an issue with this?
Yes I understand that the imagery of the bride of Christ is biblical, but I believe that as a whole we have done a great disservice in portraying this imagery, and because of that I really do think we have painted a picture of Christ and his Church as a very effeminate and sissified community. Something happened in history that took the Christ of the Bible, the Christ who got angry and drove an entire group of people out of a temple with a whip, hung around with rough and tough fisherman and other various rough necks, was beaten half to death and still had the strength to carry a cross all the way up a mountain knowing full well we was going to be nailed to it, and replaced him with a permed haired, robe wearing, flower picking wimp, and I don't like it!
I think it all started when we began "having a relationship with Christ" instead of serving and following Christ. I have to admit this is still an idea that is fresh in my mind and that I am wrestling with, but one thing I know for sure, for the most part men have a real problem with Church and I don't think its God's fault. Now do not get me wrong, I am not a sexist nor do I believe women should have no part in Church. I believe the beauty of Christ is that he is an individual who appeals to both men and women. As you look through scripture you see a man who could lead other men, and be respected and loved by women. You see a man who could drive out the supernatural with his very words and yet at the same time was one of the most compassionate and loving individuals that has ever lived. I believe that for some reason the Church focuses more on relationship than service, and the problem is women respond to relationship but men respond to service. We have carved out the model of a sissy Jesus and men do not want to follow or serve a sissy. We call men to relationship when we should be calling them to service.
Men would never say out loud, if they attend Church, that they think Jesus is a sissy, but it does not take a rocket scientist to realize that The Church is lacking in the men department. God Bless our women who have stepped up and are working hard to advance the gospel, but it's time for men to start doing their job, and it's time for the Church to stop retarding that process. There is an amazing process that takes place when we rework the way we present Christ to men and I think it is even found in scripture. I am struck that when Jesus calls the disciples to himself he does not say, "Come have a relationship with me," or "Come and get to know me better." He says, "Come follow me I'm going to put you to work"(my paraphrase). The disciples did not just sit around and listen to Jesus talk at them about how great his coming Kingdom was going to be, they were active participants in bringing that Kingdom to this world. Because Jesus gave them an opportunity to follow and to serve they grew to love him i.e. build a relationship with him, so much so that later all of them but one would die a horrible death for him. How many men in our Church's today would die a horrible death for Christ?
Men need a figure that thy can serve and follow. Don't agree with me? If your a man look at all of the men in your life that you admire. Were they sissies? Did they walk around and pick flowers and say nice religious sounding things? I doubt it. Look at the types of activities that you participate in. Why do you participate in them? Why do you follow certain sports figures, rock stars, and movie stars? Could I suggest its because you see in them or in the activity a way to live out what it means to be a man? I believe that Jesus was and is the ultimate personification of what it means to be a man. He was strong, powerful, and yet loving and compassionate all at the same time, and if the men of our Church's could grasp onto that, amazing events would take place.
Like I said earlier, this is an idea that is fresh to me. I wrestle with it a lot lately. So I would love to hear your opinions. What are you doing to engage the men of your Church for Christ? Do you agree that we have sissified Jesus? If so what do we do to restore the true picture of Christ? I know one thing I am doing, I no longer ask people to have a relationship with Christ, I ask them to follow and to serve, I figure the relationship will grow out of that.
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About Me
- jondrms
- Virginia Beach, VA, United States
- I am a happily married 25 year old mess that God some how uses to do ministry. That about sums it up.
sounds like you've been reading David Murrow's book ... good stuff
ReplyDeleteOh man i couldn't agree with you more. I get sick and tired of seeing men become Christians and then all of a sudden they begin the wuss-ification process and lose all their nerve, their back-bones turn to jelly and they become wimps. The Church needs Real Men who have the same compassion yet the same CONVICTION and DETERMINATION that Jesus and the Apostles did...
ReplyDeleteYou guys must be hanging around Christian men that I don't hang around with. No wusses around here that I'm aware of.
ReplyDeleteJonathan, I don't see the problem to the extent you do. You said yourself, "I know that the idea is there." Well, if the idea is there, does it matter that the words themselves aren't? Do we use no other words or phrases to express biblical ideas even if the words or phrases themselves are not given in the scriptures? And then you take a set of words and phrases that ARE strongly biblical ("the bride of Christ"), and diss them? Which way do you want it?
I disagree that, on the whole, we present the church as a sissified community. I'm sure that there are individuals that seem to make that happen. But I don't see it much. I see more and more and more calls to Christians, both men and women, to engage in all of life with a mind toward strength and service, BECAUSE of the relationship, not in spite of it or in place of it. I see and hear preaching and teaching and writing and singing that pushes intense interaction with God, with His people, and with His creation, in a manner that seeks the salvation and renewal of the world of people.
It is my impression that the MOST common call I hear and read and see is the (in your words) "Come, follow me, I'm going to put you to work" call. And I think it's been that way for a long time. I think what we're seeing now is actually a better balancing of the scales between that and the more tender side of God than we've seen for a good while.
Now, here's something I find interesting. I used to write and say stuff just like you've written here. 30 years ago. This idea that you've gotten fired up about -- it's not a new idea. In fact, I remember hearing it when I was in jr. hi and high school, back in the early-to-mid-70's. In my 20's, as a young Christian adult involved in ministry, I grabbed onto it and pushed it hard (reading Bonhoeffer will do that to a man.)
Ya know when I modified how I talked about that? When I became a father. I got married and suddenly had a 5-year-old son, and I began to understand the need for a firm balance between "Let's go be MEN! ARR-ARR-ARRGH! Let's cut that tree limb off!", and, "Come sit and my lap and let me read to you", and, "I'm sorry that hurt, buddy; come here and let me make it better." ALL of those are parts of God's character -- ALL of those are part of what we ought to be presenting to our men and women.
Maybe the preacher at your congregation is too wimpy in his presentation of the gospel -- I don't know, I don't know who he is. Some certainly are. Some worship leaders and youth ministers are, too. Especially worship leaders -- some of them are a little too "artsy-fartsy" for me. So I can understand your frustration. But I think that, over all, the problem isn't as wide-spread or as deeply imbedded as you and Billy clearly do.
Remember this conversation when your first son comes along, and you want to pour out all of your soft side on him.
By the way, your blog subtitle and your picture aren't coexisting well.
ReplyDeleteMr. Loveall,
ReplyDeleteFirst off I am glad that you do not struggle with this problem in your context. I want to make something clear though I am not "dissing the imagery of the Bride of Christ." I simply suggested that we have misconstrued what that idea is. Here is the quote from above that portrays that. "Yes I understand that the imagery of the bride of Christ is biblical, but I believe that as a whole we have done a great disservice in portraying this imagery." end quote. I feel for too long that "being the bride" has been represented as the Church being this damsel in distress that sits around and waits to be rescued. When I find that in scripture it is more of the idea of us charging the gates of hell getting as many people on board as possible. I believe the imagery of the bride of Christ is beautiful and needs to be taught in its proper context.
2) I am in no way suggesting that the minister at the Church I serve at delivers the gospel in a wimpy fashion. He presents the gospel in what I believe is a fair and balanced approach.
3) I never said that we should not present the side of God that says, "Hey if your hurting come let me take care of that." What I did say is that understanding of God the Father comes after we preach and teach the idea of God the master and redeemer of our souls. Out of following and serving, we begin to realize the love and compassion that a true man (modeled by Christ) should posses. Your right we need a balanced picture and I'm suggesting we have swung the penduliam too far in the direction of God the lover of our soul.
4) Your right I am young and I even admit in my blog writings that a lot of the ideas that I type are still fresh and need to be wrestled with more. I am under no false pretense that the ideas I am presenting are new or even original to myself they are simply problems I am observing. I do believe that this is not a problem that just my Church struggles with. Men are bored with Church, and there is a reason for that. I am simply trying to figure out what that reason is.
Thanks for the comments they are helping me through this train of thought.
P.S. I do not understand what you mean about my subtitle and my pictures can you clarify that?
In our conversation about this subject, and your blog, I needed to express a point of view and could not get the words out...so here it goes in writing.
ReplyDeleteI feel that it is very important to not seperate the "he-man destroyer protecter" side and the "sissified, emotional, relationshippy" side. God created us male and female in his image. God created the Christ/Church groom/bride analogy. God sent an example of relationship that is so perfect that it cannot be ignored. Song of Songs is just one book that celebrates God's gift of relationships.
I think the problem you are addressing can exsist for some people. Some, mainly men, may find that the socialite, feel-good, "warm-fuzzy" aspect of the church feels too female. In fact these people may associate that as the sole definiton for "relationsship". I think there may be some validity to those feelings and for some Christians it is hard to grow past that impression. However, I think that biblically we are called to grow past the view of girly/manly views of church and celebrate it as a whole.
Now, second point...God is more than a feel good God. He does show wrath, and vengence, and stern love, a desire for sacrifice, and def. a way of discipline. There is validity to that. I think that men may need more of a view of that side of God than maybe the modern church gives them. Too much though...and you get the crusades haha.
I think the important point is however...that God desires that relationship. He created man in his own image, man was to maintain the garden and be manly. However, something was missing. So he created a relationship. He created a softer woman who went on to be the soother, the lover, the peacekeeper. That relationship between man and woman was so cherished by God that he used it to portray how Christ and his Church are to be viewed.
So...the English word "relationship" may not be included in the text. But it is definitly there. I think the important thing to remember is to not condemn the church for celebrating the comapssionate side. But to perhaps begin celebrating the passionate warrior side.
And even if you have only grrrrr feelings toward someone...that is still a relationship. A relationship is not soley the intimate muah-muah lovey-dovey. It only means the connection by which you relate. Churchill and Hitler still had a relationship.
I just think that there is a need for the warrior and the "sissy"
Debroah, Esther, Mary, early church women fighting persecution, even Eve are just some of the countlass women who are listed in the scriptures or church history who at times needed to be warriors...even if it wasn't in war.
--Aimee
Jonathan,
ReplyDeleteFirst, late congrats and blessings on your marriage. Aimee's a good'n, I thought while I was around RBC, and I'm certain you'll have lots of years of joy and blessing.
The subtitle and pic -- the end of the subtitle, "can coexist", runs thru the top of the picture of the Bible, almost making it disappear (at least as it appears on my screen). I found it ironic that a sentence about coexisting was having a hard time coexisting visually with its illustration.
"Bride of Christ" -- I didn't intend to say you were dissing the imagery itself. Obviously I wasn't clear in what I was trying to get across. What I meant was, in light of your protest that "relationship with Christ" isn't a scriptural phrase, that actually BEING a scriptural phrase was no guarantee that the presentation about it would be any better accepted. I didn't say that well at all the first time. Sorry.
Like I said, I don't know who preaches at your church. I'm glad he does what he ought to do. In light of that, I'd want to ask you just where it is you see these things you're reacting to, and why you see it as being as widespread as you indicate.
I realize you didn't say to ignore God's more relational side. I would still disagree that present "master and redeemer" first, and then get the rest after conversion. I want to preach both at the same time. I think they're equally important in calling people to God.
I didn't mean to look down on your "youth-i-ness". While at RBC, I was impressed with your maturity and clear-headedness in study and speaking. I would like to have had you in a class or two. I only meant to say how much fatherhood turned my perspective on this issue.
By all means, continue to push men toward complete masculinity in God. Google the lyrics to a song by Randy Stonehill -- "Angry Young Men". You'll appreciate it.
Sometimes the music at churches is hard for me to sing along with because it will simply repeat all these "nice" verses and phrases about "feeling" God and being touched by Him. I for one am more interested in being transformed than in being "touched", and the music I am describing seems more interested in how I feel rather than Who God is, and more interested in pounding an emotional euphoria into me through repetition than in drawing my mind AND heart to celebrate Christ.
ReplyDeleteKurt, that can certainly be a problem. It's an issue I addressed repeatedly in some of the courses I taught. Our songs need strong statements of God's love and grace, and they also need strong statements about proper doctrine and God's calls to repentance, sacrifice and service. Any worship minister who isn't doing that is doing a grave disservice to the church.
ReplyDeleteAngry Young Men
ReplyDeleteHe wants some angry young men
Ones who can't be bought
Ones who will not run from a fight
Ones who speak the truth whether it's popular or not
Ones who'd give up anything to walk in His light
Rest assured when Jesus comes again
He'll be looking for some angry young men
He wants some angry young men
With fire in their eyes
Ones who understand what Jesus gave
Ones who have grown weary of the world and all its lies
Ones who won't forget they've been delivered from the grave
Rest assured when Jesus comes again
He'll be looking for some angry young men
They say if you don't laugh you cry
I say if you don't live you die
Well, well, the road to hell is paved with some impressive alibis
But unless you thirst for Jesus first, man, heaven will pass you by
You'll be tempted, tried and tested
There'll be wars the devil wins
But God's love is not a license to lie there in your sins
He understands the human heart
His mercy is complete
But His grace was not intended as a place to wipe your feet
Rest assured when Jesus comes again
He'll be looking for some angry young men
He wants some angry young men
Who love the Lord they serve
Ones who'll do much more than make a speech
Ones who'll act their faith out with the passion it deserves
'Cause if we cannot live it, tell me, who are we to preach?
Rest assured when Jesus comes again
He'll be looking for some angry young men